Is There Faith in Deism?
Alrighty, I promise I am not a troll out to just pick on the large number of Deists here . . . I just do not understand Deism AT ALL. This new thread is to escape from the large mess the previous one had become, and I hope I am not using your whole server's memory up with a new forum topic John. OK, In Deism, is there a faith factor at all? If not, then why not the defacto stance of Atheism?
But to me and my mind, there HAS to be a faith factor because there would be no need to define and label unless there was something believed in to label. Atheism is a word that should not exist at all. Deism at least has an object to attach to it. That object that is attached must be believed in (by faith). So isn't there faith in Deism?
The reason I am soooo rigid on this is not because I want enemies or irritate the whole internet so they come seek my out . . . rather I just see faith in any amount as destructive to rational and critical thought. Though John disagrees, I also see any amount of faith in anything (no matter how fluffy or "safe") as a causeway to allow and legitimize faith-based thinking in more obviously dangerous ways. In other words, Kids wouldn't believe Jesus so readily if they weren't already to be conditioned to believe in Santa, The Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy. Funny thing is, that teaching kids Santa doesn't exist is somehow seen as immoral or cruel. Faith is dangerous in even it's most fluffy appearances.
Jim,
I would say no more faith than the faith one has that they will live another day. You seem to be hung up a semantics. How about atheistic deism http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=458267?
Semantics? Perhaps in the conversation I had with John over the definition of "faith" . . . but I don't think I have been wrapped up in words. I would appreciate if you could make that link applicable to me and repost the important parts. Thank you.
I'm not offended, Jim, nor am I even bothered by your questions. But I would like to ask if you have read my book. It might clear up some of your questions and concerns that deism could be an enablier of Islamo-Christianity.
As for "faith", it depends how you define your terms. If you use the "letting others think for you" definition, than no, deism isn't faith-based.
We'll always have the term "atheist" because the age-old questions that I alluded to in my earlier reply aren't going away. These have been with us since we first looked up at the stars and will be with us for the forseeable future.
I'm modest enough to realize there is no way to decisively prove such matters of personal philosophy. Even if God were to come down and say "here I am", it wouldn't settle the debate. How do we know that's really God? Even I would be skeptical. Star Trek V was a horrible movie but it did make a good point at the end.
So, since these unanswered questions are with us, let's just recognize the speculations about them for what they are. In my mind, there's a sharp division between "this I know" and "this I believe". The things I "know" about are matters of objective reality that can be studied by science. The things I "believe" are subjective interpratations of objective reality, the stuff of philosophy. The glass on the table with the water it contains at the mid-point is a matter of objective reality. Whether it's half full or half empty, what meaning I assign to it and what I decide to do about it is a matter of perspective.
We live in a natural universe. Science can study the laws that govern it. But does it look like a machine to you or does it look like something that we're fortunate to have?
I do discuss how some beliefs can be dangerous:
http://godvsthebible.com/node/13#atrocities
I would be curious to know why you assume that deism might lead to this or enable the process.
John, I believe that Deism is dangerous in the same sense that I believe Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny is dangerous. The myth of Santa Claus has somehow legitimized lying to children . . . sure the idea of a jolly man in a red suit that distributes gifts is all well and good, however the idea that children have their critical facilities stunted for a few years just so that they can "enjoy" the Holidays is well beyond me.
However, to discuss the topic at hand. How is Deism bad? Well, to tell you the truth John, I am not claiming that it is intrinsically bad really and will even admit that right now I can not come up with a brilliant argument against Deism. However, deism is a belief in something which is not demonstrably so. Atheism is the belief that something has not be demonstrated, so it is ignored (ala Celestial Teapot). I believe or make the conjecture that ANY falsehood or untested belief is unneccessary intellectual baggage. Somehow untested ideas that are accepted seem to skew the world in subtle ways . . . and just as most of universe has been created through small, gradual and almost imperceptible changes, so are ideas born . . . slowly and from seemingly nowhere. I try to avoid even the smallest acceptance of ideas until they help me predict more about the nature of the universe around me. Deism makes the same predictions as Atheism . . . just with more baggage and unfounded beliefs.
I agree that teaching children about Santa Clause is wrong.
The rest I explored in my reply on the other thread.
We may want to start a new one soon if this exchange continues. I've noticed my reply was pretty narrow due to the indentation of successive reply posts.
This is where John and I disagree... a little joy in fantasy as a child I find ZERO harm in. I believed in Santa as a child and I am a totally independent, freetihinker, Intelligent adult with no harm done and many, many happy and joyful memories from my childhood. I was taught that "santa" was the joyful spirit of giving and peace and when I learned he wasn't a real person, I still had the joy. I love Santa and the Bunny and lepruchauns and a little fantasy in a world that has very little "Magic" left in it for kids. "magic" inspires imagination, creativity and joy in a mundane world. Kids don't need the burden of a magic-less existence real life as an adult is dreary enough without memories of a world of wonder as a child where we all thought unicorns and dragons and faeries and elves where in those woods behind the house dancing under the moonlight in toadstool rings. Give them a little fantasy to fuel dreams I say.
fablespinner.com
Hehe, I knew my fiance would chime in on that note. We've talked about this before, imagining future scenerios:
FUTURE KID: Daddy, there's a monster under my bed!
ME: Now, now, there's no reason to be afraid of any of these supernatural beings.
FUTURE KID: But, but...
ME: You see, God created a completely natural universe that operates according to predictable laws we can understand...
FUTURE KID: But...
ME: ...and this universe is devoid of supernatural upheavel so we don't need to worry about monsters under the bed. They don't exist.
FUTURE KID: But...
DANA: Honey, let me handle this!
BINGO...
I am a Science Fiction/Fantasy author... We can create bigger badder monster armor out of tinfoil, underoos and peanut butter!!
fablespinner.com
My parents always taught me to be suspicious of authority, especially there's.
ME AS A KID: Daddy, there's a monster under my bed!
DAD: Now, now, If there is a monster under your bed what do expect me to do about it? Do you think I could protect you from a giant flesh tearing beast that can travel through dimensions to right under your bed?
I figured out santa was fake on my own, though anyone dumb enough not to figure it out might need the jolly old bastard.
I don't really see the danger in teaching a child about Santa Claus. Wouldn't that help him/her grow up to be skeptical about more harmful lies in the adult world such as Iraq having WMDs or the existence of a God whom one must believe in to avoid being tortured for eternity? I understand that this vital lesson can be undone by other factors (such as telling a child that God is real while Santa Claus is not when you finally tell the truth or through the education system's promotion of obedience, anti-intellectualism, and conformity), but I would think that believing in the child's version of Jesus would make one less likely to believe in Jesus as an adult.